What's this coaching all about then?

All I know is that if I don't tell my pupils what to do, they haven't got a clue...

Wwwwwwwwwwwwell Chris......

Hermes 2010 defined coaching as:

A learner centred approach that engages body, mind and emotions to develop inner and outer awareness and responsibility through an equal relationship between the learner and coach.

Does that help?????

It's funny that you would be the first to reply to this post Lin

Hermes was a Greek runner wasn't he

Mind, body and emotions to develope inner and outer awareness?

I only want to teach them to drive

I'm not sure about being equal either, I want to get paid for my instructions. thats why they need to know I'm in charge.
Next thing you'll be saying is that they teach themselves!! HoHoHo

I firmly believe that to ultimately make a difference to the number of crashes involving newly qualified drivers there needs to be a new approach to driver education: PDI training, ADI training and Check Testing all need to be assessed in a whole new way.....and solid CPD needs to be mandatory!

Coaching, or Client Centered Learning as the DSA seem to have re-labelled it, is said to be an approach which when blended with existing skills, may help the ADI better cover the areas of the GDE Matrix (Page 2 of the link below) that traditional instruction doesn't!

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I quite like the idea of 'Client' centred learning. The reason for me is that Forum Mobility Centres are often part of a Hospital Trust and they call their 'Clients', Patients. The differance to me is that patients have something done to them, they are ill and in need of a cure, and 'Clients' make a choice at every stage, they are in charge of the service they recieve. (Dumb Students need to be instructed, Clients get star treatment).

The only thing with the GDE Matrix to me is that it does make for a more rounded driver. A very good thing, but if we are still instructing it will just be a harder test and there will still be deaf people who can't find an instructor.

Are you two winding each other up???

In my opinion coaching definitely has its place in driving instruction & I am trying to use it more & more. I think it should definitely be encouraged for the mainstream pupil.

But for those who aren't mainstream???? Im not sure. Can a pupil with Aspergers be expected to cope with coaching instead of instruction, or even a pupil who is intensely shy. When I was 17 I don't think I would have liked to be coached. I would have prefered instruction !!

I'm certainly messing about.

My opening point was that because I'm instructing, my pupils don't know what to do. As an 'Instructor' I was blaming my pupil

Coaching works with Asbergers, in fact it is more important. When we are teaching, there is an exchange of world veiws. Someone with Asbergers needs to understand what to do from their own perspective. Otherwise they are just following instruction and as their not good at guesing it's hard for them to be safe when they come to a new situations. The same as for any other driver, coaching promotes understanding, not just surface knowledge.

Hello I totally disagree with that Chris. So you were an instructor & now you coach??

Your pupils dont know what to do. If you put an Alien in the car, how would they know what to do without you telling them? What do the pedals do? What are the dials on the dashboard for? How do the gears work? How does the clutch work?

They are not things that can easily be guessed so why would you use coaching over instruction?

You cant be blaming them bcoz they dont know. You are explaining things to them. Thats why they are coming to you in the first place.

I used Asbergers as an example for exactly the reason you said. ' it's hard for them to be safe when they come to a new situations they are not good at guessing'..... Its often black & white for them. What ifs ,are difficult. It doesnt make them a bad driver at all, but lots of people are better with having rules they can relate back to, rather than having to decide for themselves. They are the people that benefit from instruction over coaching. I really dont think you can choose one over the other & that is the danger in my opinon. People that advocate coaching seem to dismiss teaching. I think you need both. Thats the way out kids are educated, & how we 'teach' our kids.

I also think some pupils may take a dislike to being totally coached & having to participate rather than be taught. You may well loose them because of it. Using a combination will hopefully keep them guessing

Your quite right Julie

Where there is no previous experience to work from, you need to be direct, however if you assume no previous knowledge and start with telling, that is not involving your student. Most people have been in a car and on their first lesson they like praise for knowing what the pedals do. To me the coaching finds out their level of knowledge and then builds on that foundation at a rate that suits the student.

With people who have Aspergers (A wide ranging syndrome, almost like saying women drivers or lorry drivers) for example, I can't help them if I impose my own word view which allows rule breaking. They need to develop their own method to cope. They can then assess a safest course of action in a new enviroment. Being told this is ok sometimes but not others is just confusing.

That thing about coaching being annoying I can sympathise with I was going through some theory questions with my neice and trying to tease an answer from her when her mum, my sister, said "Ohhh he used to do that to me when he helped me with my homework, he never just tells you, he just asks you more questions I do think you have a point, if anything is taken too far it usually stops working.

Im not ignoring you guys, just no time to put any thought into my responses, but I will get back to this later in more detail......

Chris and I are on the much the same wavelength here .... I believe iit's all about using the most open method to educate (not teach ) the individual.

Much of what you have mentioned and what others tell you is that coaching is all about using open questioning, but I believe it's so much more..... Ive worked hard on my listening skills, my ability to recognise and use different learning styles and methods, the way I build trust, how feedback is offered...... a whole raft of ideas. The more time I have spent using coaching methods, the less I use instruction.

I thought it was good to use a blend when I started, but Im finding that I only use instruction now (with my learners, PT 2 trainees) when safety demands it. I still struggle a bit to coach Part 3 in places if Im honest, but I know it's a cop out or to fit with the dreaded Pt3 test regime. Instruction is like a default button now!! I have found that when coached, my pupils/clients are more convinced about their acquired skills.

Hi Julie

Off subject I know but is there a way for lossing those spoof topics?

The Italian Viagra is bad enough but I've no idea about the greek one and I'm not going to check it

I am able to ignore them but if we get too many they will clog up our board

Thanks

Back on topic

Has anyone had a chance to read that book. 'Teaching Today'. I think Geoff Petty is pretty convincing about student centred learning. Lots of research to back it up and each topic makes sense I think
He explains about learning styles, teaching styles, Q + A and how even in a classroom enviroment, you can differentiate your teaching to meet the needs of each individual.

Hi Chris,

We can't loose the viagra stuff very easily im afraid.... its an open forum atm so anyone can logon & post. Phil & I are going on regularly & have deleted alot of posts. The other option is that phil & I have to allow people to logon so it has to go thru us first. We did consider it initially but felt it mayb abit awkward & people may not be able to logon when they want to, so we felt we would go down the open forum option first. However it looks like we may have to change things. So please bear with us. The naughty posts wont clogg it up coz phil & I are on top of it, but we cant be checking all of the time.

Yes I have the book. But ive not managed to open it yet..... sorry !!

Hello. In answer to your reply Chris (a few posts ago & I dont have it here to refere to so I am using my memory). I never assume what pupils know. I will always ask to asertain their knowlege & where I need to 'jump in' at. But some people do know nothing. I had 2 pupils who were sisters & neither parent drove. They were very rarely in a car & had no idea about what pedals did what, or indeed anything about the car come to that. So I had to instruct didnt I?? So as lin says when safety or common sense demands!! But what you were talking about is Q&A not coaching isnt it??!!



So tell me ........ Where does Q&A end & coaching start ??



(PS I am well aware you two are on the same wavelength hence my input xx)

Hi Julie, I knew you and Phill would be on the case

Input is all good. Discussion leads to discovery

I didn't really think that you would start off with telling someone about what the pedals do if they are a family of rally drivers and your pupil is a go-cart champion

But are you asking when you should limit the Q + A in case it turns into coaching

My first post about effective Q + A was intended to highlight the value of coaching.
The example of the road sign was to demonstrate that a correct answer can mean a good guess or a good memory, it doesn't demonstrate that a pupil is going to respond to the information or even understand what they are seeing.

I think with coaching we are really talking about professional standards. Parents tell there children that they will learn how to drive after they pass the driving test.
If all we do with our pupils is tell them what to do then I think that is true.
What we should be able to do as professional driving instructors is take pupils beyond that surface knowledge so that they understand why they should look for children when the sign says ducks.

I used to be a mechanic and I drove like one. I felt very at home in a car, I prefered to drive without the radio because I could hear the engine and road noise; this would forewarn me of any trouble with the car. I understood the car, but my driving was rubbish (I now know). I had knowledge and experience but not understanding. When I was training for the part two I questioned myself and with guidance I understood what makes a good driver. I can still choose to drive well or poorly but I choose to drive well because I understand what might happen if I drive poorly. Thats what I try to do with my pupils and I'm sure you do the same. Encouraging them to think for themselves requires coaching and that is the differance between a professional teaching someone to drive and a parent or friend telling them what to do.

Phew!! long post, maybe I should try coaching techniques on this board instead of telling

My feeling is that the DSA are moving towards the profession using coaching or CCL to go a whole lot further and deeper than the traditional instruction levels that many were originally trained to do. If we look at the GDE Matrix, it is assumed that the majority cover the lower 2 levels, control of the vehicle and mastery of traffic situations, in order to pass the basic L test. It is felt, using data from research in Europe, that young, particularly male, new drivers are often unprepared for dealing with their underlying feelings and thoughts with regard to risk, values, social pressures etc. and these are the areas in the higher levels of the GDE Matrix.

If we look at social and peer pressure for iinstance..... One of the first things ADIs cover is the whole 'pulling up in a safe, convenient and legal place' scenario. We test this understanding and make sure our learners plan their stopping to avoid blocking driveways, stopping on yellow lines, brows of hills or opposite other cars effectively blocking the road etc. Taking this further, you might test what your driver might do when told 'it's ok to stop on these double yellows'... If they do, you would have a (non- judgemental) discussion as to why they stopped there. What made them feel they should. Why they gave in to this pressure when they knew it was wrong? Could this happen in other situations? AND THE MOST IMPORTANT What might they do differently on another occassion?.... If they don't, you would be encouraging this attiude and questioning how they would deal with this situation in the car with friends. Perhaps doing this as a mini role-play when you play the friend that is ridiculing their efforts!!

I've used this as just one example to show that you arn't covering anything different, just going a bit deeper. Instead of purely covering levels 1 and 2 in the GSE Matrix, this them covers elements of 3 and 4 too!!.... I hope this makes sense!

'But are you asking when you should limit the Q + A in case it turns into coaching '

.... No I dont think you need to limit Q & A, coz I think I do coach & I have nothing against it.

Im just asking where the line is?

We are taught to use Q & A so when does Q & A become coaching

'Parents tell there children that they will learn how to drive after they pass the driving test.
If all we do with our pupils is tell them what to do then I think that is true.
What we should be able to do as professional driving instructors is take pupils beyond that surface knowledge so that they understand why they should look for children when the sign says ducks'


While what you are saying is true, I think what the parents are saying is true too.

We cant be nieve enough to think that what & how we teach our pupils. however we do it, is enough to see them through the next 50 years of driving. We can only give them a few tools to work with. Passing the L test is the first step like taking your child to nursery. It then becomes their responsibily to take on board what they know, develop their skills, keep upto date & remain a safe driver.

I think this is where I differ from you & lin. You seem to imply the job is done with how we teach. Perhaps I am too cynical but how a pupil drives in the future is not down to how we have taught them but surely all the situations they encounter along the way....

Sorry about answering your post in separate bits chris, its just coz the page has turned & I have to copy & paste the bits I want to reply to !!!

Chris I think you may have been a litttle ocd with the mechanic bit. No radio incase there was something wrong with the car thats abit over the top ??? But do you do private work

As a mechanic why would you need to know about being a safe driver as I presume thats what you mean about driving well. But ask yourself if you didnt pass part 2 & not in this job, would your driving skills have slipped back to as they were without the need to remain a good driver.

'I can still choose to drive well or poorly but I choose to drive well because I understand what might happen if I drive poorly'

But why didnt you understand that before. Self preservation is fundimental isnt it. So what takes that self presevation feeling away???

To be totally honest though if im in my saab with the soft top down radio on loud, I dont always drive like I would in my Ka. In my opinion I am always safe but for a start I have alot more power !!! I have been in other instructors cars who do the same .

(Think maybe we should just ring each other Chris !!!! - did you see we are amazing members now!!)

Lin you make perfect sence as always. but I still stand by what I am saying otherwise wouldnt the roads be full of very near perfect drivers??

In response to the OCD thing When you spend your day with broken cars, you tend to loose trust in their reliability

What I was trying to illustratate with my recollections was that my knowledge and experience as a mechanic made me think I was a good driver. In the same way that every late teen, early twenties male driver believes that they are. I could perform any driving task you asked of me. On my second lesson I parallel parked outside the parade of shops where lived. Before I took driving lessons I would drive customers cars out of parking places that they found impossible. However, I lacked depth of understanding.

Coaching is a method of getting students actively involved in their learning. We have all had pupils that just attend driving lessons and expect to pass in 10 lessons.
How I understand coaching is that when your pupils work something out for themselves, they get immediate praise for it and through setting acheivable goals and giving immediate rewards for reaching them, students are encouraged to take the lesson on for themselves. They become active learners and they gain greater understanding.
Another example from my past At school, I had a good feel for maths, because I was good in this subject, I would go home and explore formulas so that I really understood how and why that formula worked. In this subject I was an active learner. Being an active learner made maths my favourite subject and it helped me acheive understanding not only of how to use mathematical formulas but also why they worked. Knowledge to understanding.

The thing really for me is that when I was training to be a driving instructor. Coaching wasn't even mentioned. Effective Q + A was, but I didn't know what that was. Only to ask questions sometimes to keep the examiner happy. I remember spending alot of time teaching my early pupils when to change gear!!!

Since I came across coaching and then upon starting to use it better I've found it suits the way I want to 'teach'. The PTTLS course I'm doing has further broadened my understanding of coaching and how effective it can be. The main reason that I like it however is that I enjoy being an active learner, I get much more from a course when I can take part in the learning, so I think that my students might get more from their training if they are doing their bit too

Hello Chris,

I dont think you need to limit the people who think they are good drivers to just early teens & males in their twenties. How about males in their 50s ?? or females come to that

Using Q&A is the start of coaching though isnt it??

I do think that maybe you should be a politician Chris coz you gave a very informative reply, but I dont think you actually answered my questions?


What I am saying in a 'roundabout' way. Is that the attitudes you are trying to instil via coaching will (in my opinion too) stay with a pupil longer than they would do with just straight forward instruction & simple Q & A. But for most pupils a lot of those good attitudes will slip away fairly quickly. So how do we sort that out ???

How many times this week, have you had a dirty look from another driver, coz your pupil has stalled or taken a bit longer at a roundabout, or even been overtaken even though you are doing the limit?? Thats what I mean.

Well I posted my reply last night & this morning I've just watched Driving with Grace..... ( Thanks Lin. ) which rather strangely Illustrates the point I was trying to make. I have no idea what the answer is !!!!

Jules wrote:

What I am saying in a 'roundabout' way. Is that the attitudes you are trying to instil via coaching will (in my opinion too) stay with a pupil longer than they would do with just straight forward instruction & simple Q & A. But for most pupils a lot of those good attitudes will slip away fairly quickly. So how do we sort that out ???

How many times this week, have you had a dirty look from another driver, coz your pupil has stalled or taken a bit longer at a roundabout, or even been overtaken even though you are doing the limit?? Thats what I mean.

This illustrates the fundamental difference between coaching and instruction, Julie. When coaching you work with your pupil's attiudes, not instil your own. By giving them responsibility for their learning from the start, it isn't a big shock come 'independent driving', 'the driving test' or 'life thereafter'. The situations you mention highlight the pressures inexperienced drivers often feel, sometimes self-inflicted, sometimes by others' attitudes, but by working on coping strategies with them, they take responsibility for the situation.

Have you ever tried putting pressure on your pupil to test these ideas out?....... Perhaps stop the car 15 mins before the end of their lesson, look at your watch/clock, and in a forceful voice say something like, 'Blimey, we're running late, we need to get back home as quickly as possible 'cos Ive got to pick the kids up? Soon as you can, off you go!' If they take their time push it a bit!! Look at your watch again, tut, and tell them to 'Get a move on!' Ive even said, 'You would't get speed traps here, it's ok to go faster here!!' ............. Whether they comply with your instruction or not, pull over and discuss - big-time!! Why did they feel the need to go faster? (If they did) How did your comments make them feel? What similar situations might they be in where they feel under that sort of pressure? Late for school/work? Friends egging them on? Other drivers scowling, sounding the forn, flashing lights, overtaking? Feeling that 'NOBODY sticks to 30 speed limits!!'.... Perhaps you could practice what they might do or say? Much as you might do if your own kids are being bullied at school when they are little eh?

If they have thought about these things previously, they are far more likely to react positively post-test! I'm not saying they won't let themselves down at times, but hopefully their experience in lessons gives them a head start in taking responsibility for their own actions!!

It's difficult to explain these things with limited words on the forum..... I hope you see where I am coming from!

Quote :

What I am saying in a 'roundabout' way. Is that the attitudes you are trying to instil via coaching will (in my opinion too) stay with a pupil longer than they would do with just straight forward instruction & simple Q & A. But for most pupils a lot of those good attitudes will slip away fairly quickly. So how do we sort that out ???

How many times this week, have you had a dirty look from another driver, coz your pupil has stalled or taken a bit longer at a roundabout, or even been overtaken even though you are doing the limit?? Thats what I mean

The idea of coaching is that it is their own idea so they would have to change their own minds but at least they are starting out right.

As to those other motorists, one answer might be to not only teach learner drivers
A Fleet badge will give you access to all those professional drivers, Van drivers etc that you would like to sort out. Believe it or not, with experienced drivers, coaching, as we have been discussing it, is something you need to demonstrate as part of the examination process, and it is a good method to bring them round. I have the badge but I did the driver awareness courses
Then get a ROSPA gold and teach on the driver awareness courses, these drivers have been stopped for driving without due care and attention
Hey! We seem to be starting to build a CPD portfolio here